Mike LaValliere (Transcript)

Robby Incmikoski: All right, here we are recording with Mike "Spanky" Lavalliere, my 112th interview for this book. Spanky, what was it like playing catcher in the big leagues and having some of the experiences that you had? At this age now, in your 60s, you're looking back at your playing career. How fortunate were you to have the career that you did, Mike?

Mike Lavalliere: I was an undrafted free agent. So not being drafted, I was already kind of behind the eight ball, and being able to make it to the big leagues was a big deal. And being able to stay—I just feel so fortunate that I had great coaching. I signed as a third baseman, then became a catcher, and I had some great coaching that helped me develop as a catcher.

Robby Incmikoski: What is—they call it "the tools of ignorance," Spanky. Why is that? Why do they call it the tools of ignorance when they refer to catchers' gear, in your opinion?

Mike Lavalliere: Because all the soft people in the world don't know how to put catching gear on! I think back in the day, "the tools of ignorance" referred to the fact you go back every day behind the plate and take a beating. That's just what the job entails. And I guess you have to be a little ignorant to pain and the mental fatigue in order to be a catcher. So I think that's where that was derived from.

Robby Incmikoski: Spanky, let me ask you this. You were part of turning the culture around. You were a key cog in turning the culture around with the Pirates in the late '80s leading into the '90s. Leyland comes in. Obviously, you got the talented teammates that you have—Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, Drabek, Bob Walk, all those people. Of course, we know all that. But what kind of pride do you take in being the guy behind the plate that really helped change the culture of the team and the city? Because you played a very important role in that.

Mike Lavalliere: I think what was one of the main things is, we were a true team. We helped each other out, we pushed each other, we kept each other accountable. And I think the biggest thing is, as you mentioned, gosh, we had a lot of talent. Being part of that was great to watch. Barry running out to left field every night made us a better team. Andy in center with all the great catches that he made, Chico at second, Jay at short—we had just a very talented, fun group of guys. To me, the personal recognition was way overshadowed by the team accomplishments. And that's pretty much what we were.

Robby Incmikoski: How good were those teams? You look at the '91-'92 teams—how much did you guys feel like, "We can do this"? What kind of confidence, once you got good and started making the playoffs, made you guys think, "Okay, we're good enough, we can do this"?

Mike Lavalliere: We had some really tough teams in our division. The Cardinals were always tough. The Mets at that time, they were tough. Just to get to the playoffs—once that happened, it kind of solidified our thinking that we really belonged. And then for us to be able to do it three years is just a testament to a number of things.

Not to shortchange anyone, but I think Jim Leyland gets a giant piece of credit for that, even though he didn't throw any balls, didn't hit any, didn't catch any. But what he did was bring us together and let us do our thing. And to me, that was the key to everything.

Robby Incmikoski: Spanky, I've never heard somebody say a negative word about Leyland that's played for him. What made him a great manager?

Mike Lavalliere: He made every guy on the team feel important, from one to 25. And what he did is he put each of us in a position to succeed that ultimately would help the team succeed, and we were all fully aware of that.

As a player, you want to get a shot. Sometimes you felt like you needed more, but it was more about the trust in Jim over everything else, because we knew that he was going to do his very best. And he had a great staff also. That group of guys were just tremendous. It was truly as much of a team as probably any that have played.

Robby Incmikoski: In Game Seven in '92, Bob Walk said that you guys kind of knew that was your last hurrah as a team. Free agency was headed, guys were going to leave, whatever the situation was at that time. Bob said that you guys knew that. How deflating was that when Sid slid into home plate, collectively for the team?

Mike Lavalliere: I don't think any of us were thinking beyond that series. In the back of your mind, you knew that we probably weren't going to stay together. We'd already lost Bonilla. We were losing pieces here and there. We knew that Barry—he was gone. There was a sense of urgency, but more importantly, we were just in the moment.

One of the crushing things is, we don't have that crutch that we were looking ahead. We didn't have that crutch. We were all in right then and there.

Robby Incmikoski: Looking back on it, how special was it for you to be a part of those teams?

Mike Lavalliere: I was very fortunate. Played for some great managers in Jim Frey, Whitey Herzog, the organizations in St. Louis and the Cardinals were great. But those six years I spent in Pittsburgh—I think of myself as a Pirate, even though I played for four teams. I'm thankful for the opportunity that each team gave me. But I love Pittsburgh, the city. I still love the city, I love going back. It's my happy place.

Robby Incmikoski: To talk about the play, when Francisco Cabrera makes contact, what was your read on that play? As soon as Cabrera makes contact?

Mike Lavalliere: The play was developing too slowly for us, and that's where we all have an internal clock where, "Okay, we know that this is going to happen, this is going to happen," and it wasn't happening quick enough. That was the initial thought.

He got the hit, I thought maybe even a chance that they would hold Sid up, but he got a tremendous jump. The ball was hit hard—if it was right at Barry, it would have had a different outcome, but it was hit where he had to go away from the ball. He had to turn, and it wasn't an easy play by any means.

So everybody focuses in on that play, but you look back at the game, we had a chance to score more runs, to have a bigger cushion. So it really shouldn't have come down to the play, but ultimately, that's what everybody talks about. We had a chance to win that game earlier, and we didn't get a chance to capitalize on that, which ultimately led to our defeat.

Robby Incmikoski: And this is not—when I ask this, I'm not putting Barry in a tough spot—but, man, do you almost wish, "Oh man, if I were about two and a half, maybe three steps to the right of home plate"? Do you think, "Man, if I were a step closer, maybe Sid's out"?

Mike Lavalliere: I still think he was out. When you bend-leg slide, when you're going into second and you go into third, it's no problem, because that front foot is up in the air. You can't bend-leg slide and stick your spike in the ground, or you break your ankle. It's one of the first things they teach.

Sid bend-leg slid. I think I got his front foot. I definitely was over on the play. Whether he touched the plate before I got his back leg, I don't know. I've actually had—I was doing games for ESPN, and I had some guys take a look at it, and it was inconclusive. There were only two angles.

So in my mind, he was out. Does that make any difference? I don't know. Over the years, we've had a little fun with it. We signed pictures of that—I put "He was out," and he put "I was safe." So, I mean, he was called safe, and ultimately, that's what you live with.

Robby Incmikoski: Sid Bream is a wonderful man, and I know, obviously, you played with Sid. How crazy is it that Sid, who played the game hard, right—and he obviously wasn't known for his speed, we all know that—but Sid was a hell of a first baseman, had a hell of a career, and he's a hell of a guy. How crazy is it that a guy who is such a part of such a big moment in the history of baseball in the city—he left the Pirates to go play for the Braves, and ends up doing that, and now he makes his home in Pittsburgh. How do you kind of put all that into words when you look at the game of life?

Mike Lavalliere: Sid wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. The Pirates chose not to sign him. So that wasn't Sid's choice to go away from Pittsburgh. So in that respect, that's part of the story.

Maybe it's the baseball gods—everybody talks about them. Maybe they have a little more influence than we give them credit for. It's kind of tough, because Sid is such a great guy. He lives in Pittsburgh. It's almost like he's still apologetic for doing what he did, which was help his team win. It's just ironic how that all played out. And I guess if there was a guy that was going to do that, I was glad it was Sid.

Robby Incmikoski: It's almost like nobody has a bad word to say about him. Ever, Spanky. Why is that?

Mike Lavalliere: He's a great man. He's a great Christian man that is very strong in his faith, and he lives his life that way. He's a great role model, not only for his family, but for baseball fans, for everyone in life. He's that kind of guy.

He's almost apologetic, and he's very humble about things. He did have a wonderful career, and he, like most of us, wanted to finish it in Pittsburgh. It's too bad that he wasn't scoring that run for us.

Robby Incmikoski: How crazy is it for you, Spanky, that that play at the plate—the Braves went on and would win a bunch of division titles, three years later they win the World Series. The Pirates would lose for 20 straight years. You obviously have nothing to do with that. But just how crazy is it when you look back at history, and that play was the defining moment that sent the Pirates on a 20-year spiral of losing? You're the guy involved in it. Do you ever look at it from that perspective?

Mike Lavalliere: Not really. I mean, when it comes down to it, after losing it, they pretty much just broke the team up. They let me go the first weekend in '93. Barry left. You started losing important pieces of the puzzle. Also, guys were getting older, and it was just to the point where I think it was inevitable. If they didn't reload, they're paying for what they didn't do, and they're still paying for it.

Robby Incmikoski: Wow. This is wild to look back on, Spanky. And his knee brace, by the way—his knee brace is on display at Truist Park in Atlanta. How crazy is that? Of all the memorabilia fans see in baseball, Sid's knee brace is out there in a display case.

Mike Lavalliere: It's also ironic—he and I in 1989 had our knee surgeries the same day at Passavant Hospital in Pittsburgh. So we both had knee braces. I didn't wear mine anymore. But yeah, there's some comparisons and some coincidences and all kinds of things you can read into it.

Robby Incmikoski: That is crazy. It's just crazy, man, and it's crazy for me, as a fan and a guy who worked in baseball for 16 years, to be asking these questions and looking back on history. So I appreciate that, Mike.

Mike Lavalliere: It took me over a dozen years to watch the replay. It's a horrible memory. It's like a nightmare you don't want to experience again. So I just wasn't ready. And even when I saw it, I still wasn't ready. If it comes on the TV, I don't watch it.

Robby Incmikoski: So let me ask you this—why are you so gracious and professional and friendly in talking about this, when people like me bother you to ask about it?

Mike Lavalliere: It's history. It is one of the greatest games played, but the wrong team won. That's what being a professional is all about. You leave it all out on the field, and then what happens, happens. And then you live with that.

If you cheat yourself, that's where there's issues. And I never felt like any of us cheated ourselves. So it's fairly easy to talk about it, even though it's a very tough memory. But again, it's more of two parts of my life—one real bad part right there, and then the rest of it, the rest of my life, which is absolutely fabulous.

Robby Incmikoski: And how much of a lesson can be learned, Spanky? You talk about kids, right? Baseball is a game of failure. You guys did not win that game, but you're so professional, you're so gracious, and you're so kind to people like myself when you get asked about one of the most famous plays in the history of baseball. How many lessons are there to be taken from when you don't win a game, and how that kind of translates into the game of life? It took you so long to watch the replay, and here you are generously talking about it.

Mike Lavalliere: Life lessons are learned, and failure is one of our best teachers. Learning from failure and overcoming the fear of failure makes us better people. And that's kind of how I look at it. It was a failure, but the sun was coming up the next day. You can't live in the past, but you can learn from it.